19 replies to this topic

[Great Ape]

Greetings to everyone. My name is Terry and I am an atheist who has a firm belief in evolution as the origin of the human species. I have never been a religious person. I believe I started life as an atheist or at least an agnostic. Even though, since my late teens I have sought the answers to life's big questions. I can't remember ever being religious in my thinking. Although I have wished many times there was indeed a God, logic and reason always seem to prevail.

Perhaps I am not religious because I was not brought up to be so. Not that my parents didn't believe in God but because they were not the type of religious people that attended church. My mother is now 75 years old and believes with utter certainty that there is a God. She is not big on religion but please don't tell her that God doesn't exist. She believes in God, but in her own way. To tell her that there is no God is to invite argument. I know this well for we have argued about it many times. I have never been able to change her belief that some kind of God exists. Not that I wanted to change her mind. She is free to believe what she wishes as is everyone else. Now at the ripe old age of 75 she deserves whatever comfort a belief in God can bring to her.

It's just that an atheist and a theist cannot talk about God and religion without it turning into an argument. I have found this to be true with everyone who is religious to any degree. To say, "I am an atheist," to a group of friends or worse strangers, is to invite an argument on the existence of God and the importance of religion. Most people seem to be religious to some extent. Even if they are just deists and not a follower of any particular religion. I can't remember or give an accurate account of how many times i have found myself having a religious argument since I was in my late teens. They have been numerous. Frankly, I am tired of arguing with religious people over whether God exists or not. You can't change their minds and they can't change yours. It is usually an exercise in futility. It is very hard to change a persons belief system.

Now at the age of 55, I find that I know nothing. There are so many things I do not know. Things that perhaps can never be known to man. The problem is there are no answers to the big questions of life. No matter how much you beat your head against the wall. Or how much you study religion, philosophy, ethics, morality, evolution and all the other sciences. There is still no definitive answer to the big questions. Questions such as, "What is the meaning of life?" Does God exist? Do humans have a higher purpose besides living and dying? What happens after we die? Do we have a soul? Is there a spiritual realm that we are unaware of? All these questions and more go unanswered.

We simply lack the knowledge and or technology to unlock these answers. Quite possibly some day mankind will progress to a point where some of these questions can be answered. Technology, evolution or space aliens may give us the answers to these most important age old life questions. Until such a time we are left wanting. We are left unknowing. Left with the big questions and no answers. Perhaps mankind will never find definitive answers to these particular questions. There well may be no answers. I do not know. But it breaks my heart when I pursue them and find only a brick wall.

The God lovers can't prove that God exists. Atheists can't prove that God doesn't exist. It's a stalemate and the religious nutters are winning. They control almost everything. It is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs. Especially as an atheist.

I suppose over the years I have become an agnostic atheist who despises religion. I don't know if God exists for I have no definitive information for or against his existence. However, I don't believe that he does. Everything I know points to the fact that God does not exist. For better or worse, along the way I have learned to dislike religion and the devoutly religious. I think I hate God too. For he is not the God he should be. It's all rather depressing. I think I shall close this introduction now and go off and ponder the big questions some more. For all the good it will do me, it's time to beat my head against the wall yet again. Thank you for listening to my ramblings. I had a real need to say this to others who would understand how I feel. Peace to all.

Edited by Great Ape, 02 January 2012 - 05:04 PM.

[Ungodly]

First, welcome Great Ape I am very glad you joined us. You seem just the sort of fresh meat new member we hope to attract. OK- just kidding about the fresh meat part.

While your never having had a religious background does differentiate you clearly from most people I find it interesting that you seem at least somewhat radicalized against organized religion. Many Christians claim that atheists in Western culture are just reacting to a bad experience growing up in the family brand of delusions, but in your case you had no history of wrong teachings to reject.

Great Ape, on 02 January 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

The God lovers can't prove that God exists. Atheists can't prove that God doesn't exist.

I can't agree that this always applies. To the extent that you can get a person suffering from theism to give you a specific definition of their imaginary friend you may be able to demonstrate that the assigned superpowers are mutually exclusive, or in some other way show that such an absurdity could not be real.

So, we might expect that as the number of fanciful details provided about an imaginary friend increases the probability that one of them can easily demonstrate a paradox increases, generally, not in a strict mathematical fashion perhaps.

But I digress.

Another way to interpret your statement is that an atheist can not disprove the existence of future imaginary friends that have not yet been invented. Of course this is true, just as I can not prove there is not a subatomic alien spaceship concealed underneath the left big toenail of Newt Gingrich. My point: the more ridiculous your claim the more ready to back it up with evidence you ought to be. And really, Christianity has certainly got a fair portion of ridiculous going for it. And of course while we continue to wait for evidence of the Christian God we still have sarcasm and satire to keep us off the streets.

Once again, it's good that you joined!

[Great Ape]

Ungodly, on 02 January 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

First, welcome Great Ape I am very glad you joined us. You seem just the sort of fresh meat new member we hope to attract. OK- just kidding about the fresh meat part.

Hi Ungodly, thank you for the warm welcome. Fresh meat is OK. Especially if you're a carnivore! On second thought that would be good for the carnivore, but bad if you're the meat! I warn you though i am rather boney and quite unsavory. Nibble at your own risk!

Quote

While your never having had a religious background does differentiate you clearly from most people I find it interesting that you seem at least somewhat radicalized against organized religion. Many Christians claim that atheists in Western culture are just reacting to a bad experience growing up in the family brand of delusions, but in your case you had no history of wrong teachings to reject.

While it's true I don't have a religious background, I have still dealt with the religious section of our society. One of the things that annoys me the most is their blatant use of lies and misdirection when it comes to any science that refutes their beliefs. I'm sure you know as well as I how they manipulate scientific facts to fit their own. I think this does the whole world a disservice. I truly believe religion has set mankind back hundreds of years. I can't tell you how many times i have heard from Christians that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is so much monkey crap. The earth is only 6,000 years old etc ad nauseam. There are many cases of this. I won't go into all of it in this post. I know you are aware of them. There are many things I dislike about religion and those that practice it. Their self righteousness, their unwavering adherence to doctrine that has no basis in any logical reasoning or fact. Then there is all the misery, death and pain caused by religion. It is legion. Even with all the good religion has done, it doesn't make it right or make up for all the bad. There are many reasons for the way I feel. This is only a short list.

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I can't agree that this always applies. To the extent that you can get a person suffering from theism to give you a specific definition of their imaginary friend you may be able to demonstrate that the assigned superpowers are mutually exclusive, or in some other way show that such an absurdity could not be real.

So, we might expect that as the number of fanciful details provided about an imaginary friend increases the probability that one of them can easily demonstrate a paradox increases, generally, not in a strict mathematical fashion perhaps.

Yes, I agree. There are arguments. What I would like is indisputable fact that god does not exist. Concrete evidence that he does not exist. I watched a video earlier on this site which was quite good about how to conduct logical arguments to refute theist claims. I believe you posted it. It was very good and I totally agree with it. It was in your post titled Logic versus Theism.

Quote

Another way to interpret your statement is that an atheist can not disprove the existence of future imaginary friends that have not yet been invented. Of course this is true, just as I can not prove there is not a subatomic alien spaceship concealed underneath the left big toenail of Newt Gingrich. My point: the more ridiculous your claim the more ready to back it up with evidence you ought to be. And really, Christianity has certainly got a fair portion of ridiculous going for it. And of course while we continue to wait for evidence of the Christian God we still have sarcasm and satire to keep us off the streets.

Well said. I believe that Newt Gingrich may indeed have an alien spaceship concealed underneath his left big toenail. He is certainly hiding something!

Quote

Once again, it's good that you joined!

Thank you sir. You are very kind. I am already enjoying my time here. Now where's that toenail clipper? Newt! Get your ass over here!

Edited by Great Ape, 02 January 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[Joe Bloe]

Good to hear from you Great Ape. Like you, I am one of those people who never believed.

Great Ape, on 02 January 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

One of the things that annoys me the most is their blatant use of lies and misdirection when it comes to any science that refutes their beliefs.

It was only last night that I saw an example of just how blatant they can be. I came across a Christian site (I didn't bookmark it, so I can't give you a link) where the author used this quote from Charles Darwin to "prove" that evolution is "absurd"

Quote

To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.

But then the author (of the Christian site) went on to provide this link to the quotation:
http://www.infidels....s/Chapter6.html


As you probably know, Darwin immediately goes on to explain exactly how the eye could have been formed by natural selection and concludes by saying:

Quote

If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case.

So how's that for blatant? A Christian website cherry-picks a quote from Darwin to suggest that evolution doesn't work, and then links to an atheist site where Darwin himself goes on to explain that there is conclusive evidence to prove that evolution does work.



Self delusion on this scale reminds me of a story from the 19th century when a hillbilly took his son to the Barnum and Bailey show. They were looking at the giraffe and the father said to the boy, "Don't you believe it son - there ain't no such animal."]

[deathislife]

Welcome to the site, Great Ape. It's always nice to find and meet new members of this site.

Great Ape, on 02 January 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

It's just that an atheist and a theist cannot talk about God and religion without it turning into an argument. I have found this to be true with everyone who is religious to any degree. To say, "I am an atheist," to a group of friends or worse strangers, is to invite an argument on the existence of God and the importance of religion.

I completely agree with this. The one time it did not provoke a debate, my atheism, was when I was talking to a chap from... Sweden, I think it was. A country like that. Of course, they don't have religion like we do, so the guy didn't see why me being an atheist mattered. Ahhh, what great countries those are...

Anyway, nice to see a new member, and I hope you enjoy your time here.

[Storybook]

Hi Great Ape! This is a friendly small group of infidels and you will fit in just fine here.

Great Ape, on 02 January 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

It's just that an atheist and a theist cannot talk about God and religion without it turning into an argument.

Oh, I know what you mean. I don't like getting into those types of arguments with religious people.

Great Ape, on 02 January 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

There is still no definitive answer to the big questions. Questions such as, "What is the meaning of life?" Does God exist? Do humans have a higher purpose besides living and dying? What happens after we die? Do we have a soul? Is there a spiritual realm that we are unaware of? All these questions and more go unanswered.

No, we will never know the answers to those questions (at least, not in my lifetime) so it's not worth my time obsessing about it. I just want to focus on enjoying my life while I'm here.

Great Ape, on 02 January 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

I suppose over the years I have become an agnostic atheist who despises religion.

Ha ha ha! Me too.

I look forward to more of your posts!

[Great Ape]

Joe Bloe, on 02 January 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Good to hear from you Great Ape. Like you, I am one of those people who never believed.

Howdy from Texas Joe! Thank you for welcoming me to the site. It's a pleasure to chat with all you fine atheists. So you were never religious either. Cool. Thank God (irony intended) we didn't have to fight our way out of the church! Man, we dodged that bullet eh? Lucky us!

Joe Bloe, on 02 January 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Self delusion on this scale reminds me of a story from the 19th century when a hillbilly took his son to the Barnum and Bailey show. They were looking at the giraffe and the father said to the boy, "Don't you believe it son - there ain't no such animal."

Ha Ha, yeah exactly. Ignorance is one thing. Delusion and denial is another. It is OK to be ignorant of something if you lack the knowledge but want to learn and improve yourself. It is another matter entirely when you have the knowledge and deny it anyway. This is what christian fundamentalists do. I apologize for picking on the Christians but they are such an easy example in this country, and certainly the most blatant in their denials of known and universally accepted scientific knowledge.

[Great Ape]

deathislife, on 02 January 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Welcome to the site, Great Ape. It's always nice to find and meet new members of this site.

Hi ya deathislife. Thank you for your nice welcome. It is much appreciated.

deathislife, on 02 January 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

I completely agree with this. The one time it did not provoke a debate, my atheism, was when I was talking to a chap from... Sweden, I think it was. A country like that. Of course, they don't have religion like we do, so the guy didn't see why me being an atheist mattered. Ahhh, what great countries those are...;

Arguing with theists used to be somewhat fun when I was younger and was a drinker. I used to get drunk with friends and discuss religion, God, and other such subjects. It was interesting to a point. The point being up to the time someone became angry or got their feelings hurt. I quit drinking many years ago though. Arguing with theists now is just a chore. A somewhat useless and tedious chore at that.

It is my fondest wish to live in Denmark one day or at least visit there before I have shuffled off this mortal coil.

deathislife, on 02 January 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Anyway, nice to see a new member, and I hope you enjoy your time here.

Thank you deathislife. I have a feeling I will enjoy it here. I hope to chat with you again soon. Take care.

[Great Ape]

Storybook, on 02 January 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Hi Great Ape! This is a friendly small group of infidels and you will fit in just fine here.

Hello there Storybook! Thank you for welcoming me. You guys do seem to be a friendly group and it will be a pleasure to hang out with such like minded infidels. I am happy I found this website.

Storybook, on 02 January 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

No, we will never know the answers to those questions (at least, not in my lifetime) so it's not worth my time obsessing about it. I just want to focus on enjoying my life while I'm here.

Sadly this is true. I spent a great deal of my life obsessing over this. At the end of the day I still had no answers. Was it worth it? No, not really. It caused problems in my life. I would have been a happier person if I had not. I wish now I had spent the time enjoying my life more. Especially since it availed me not. Just endless circles of thought that lead to the same place. No where.

Storybook, on 02 January 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

I look forward to more of your posts!

Thanks again Storybook. I too look forward to more discussions. Take care my friend.

[Joe Bloe]

Great Ape, on 03 January 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Howdy from Texas Joe!

Hello again Great Ape. I live in Adelaide, South Australia. Both of our States (Texas and South Australia) were founded in 1836 and Austin, Texas has been Adelaide's sister city since 1983.

Great Ape, on 03 January 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

So you were never religious either. Cool. Thank God (irony intended) we didn't have to fight our way out of the church! Man, we dodged that bullet eh? Lucky us!

I wrote about it in this blog. It wasn't just religion though - I was skeptical about regular bedtime stories as well. Poor old mum would be reading to me about the three little kittens who lost their mittens and I'd be saying. "That's not true mum - kittens don't wear mittens!" I must have been a weird little kid in those days.

Great Ape, on 03 January 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

Ignorance is one thing. Delusion and denial is another. It is OK to be ignorant of something if you lack the knowledge but want to learn and improve yourself. It is another matter entirely when you have the knowledge and deny it anyway. This is what christian fundamentalists do.

In years gone by, I used to annoy fundamentalists when they asked how I thought the Universe began if it wasn't created by god. I always told them, "I don't know how the Universe works, but that's hardly surprising - I don't know how my refrigerator works either - We don't have to know everything."

Great Ape, on 03 January 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

I apologize for picking on the Christians but they are such an easy example in this country, and certainly the most blatant in their denials of known and universally accepted scientific knowledge.

Same with me - I can't talk about other religions because I don't know anything about them.

[Ungodly]

The problem with asking how the Universe began is contained within the question. The question assumes that the Universe once was not, yet we see no evidence to support this assumption. Of course it is always difficult to establish the nonexistence of anything, let alone everything. My point is that we maybe should stop and ask ourselves if the concept of a time when nothing existed is perhaps paradoxical. With nothing in existence there would be nothing for which time to be relative, so there could not be time.

No matter, no time. Therefore no time before matter.

If time then matter.

[Joe Bloe]

Where was god before he created the universe (there was nowhere to be)

What was he doing (there was nothing to do)

What was he thinking (there was nothing to think about)

[Great Ape]

Joe Bloe, on 03 January 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Hello again Great Ape. I live in Adelaide, South Australia. Both of our States (Texas and South Australia) were founded in 1836 and Austin, Texas has been Adelaide's sister city since 1983.

Hi Joe! Thank you for responding again. It is appreciated. I did not know that Adelaide, South Australia was the sister city to Austin, Texas. How wonderful! Thank you for sharing that with me. It is interesting that you are from Adelaide. I was just reading an article earlier today about Adelaide preachers targeting train passengers with their messages of hate. I found the article here: Link

Joe Bloe, on 03 January 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

I wrote about it in this blog. It wasn't just religion though - I was skeptical about regular bedtime stories as well. Poor old mum would be reading to me about the three little kittens who lost their mittens and I'd be saying. "That's not true mum - kittens don't wear mittens!" I must have been a weird little kid in those days.

Thanks for the link to your article. I just read it. I love that you were a freethinker at such a young age and commend you for it. That is wonderful really. Everyone should think for themselves. It would solve so many problems. It sounds like your mum had quite a handful with you. I bet she loves you all the more for it.

Joe Bloe, on 03 January 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

In years gone by, I used to annoy fundamentalists when they asked how I thought the Universe began if it wasn't created by god. I always told them, "I don't know how the Universe works, but that's hardly surprising - I don't know how my refrigerator works either - We don't have to know everything."

True, we don't need to know everything and some things can never be known. I must content myself with this since it is better than beating my head against that damn wall.

Joe Bloe, on 03 January 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Same with me - I can't talk about other religions because I don't know anything about them.

That's OK though, the Christians tell us all we need to know about the horrors of mindless obedience to the word of a mythical all powerful god. I hope to have more discussions with you. Cheers!

[Great Ape]

Yeah, a hefty question indeed. We know that our universe was created with the Big Bang. There is plenty of scientific data to refer to on that. It all points to that and most scientists concur. What was there before the Big Bang? I have no idea. What existed prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. But I am betting whatever state it was in, it was natural and not of supernatural origin. The Big Bang was a natural occurrence. What ever was before that would be the same. My point being there is not the hand of some mysterious God in the mix. In time I think we will discover the answer to the question of what was there before the Big Bang. They are learning more about how the universe works every day and it's a wonderful thing. If you sit and try to imagine the whole of the entire universe it would be mind-boggling. However, science has now told us that the universe is, in fact, finite, with a beginning, a middle, and a future.



How many atheists does it take to change a light bulb?
Two. One to actually change the bulb, and the other to videotape the job so fundamentalists won’t claim that god did it.

Edited by Great Ape, 04 January 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Joe Bloe]

Great Ape, on 03 January 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

It is interesting that you are from Adelaide. I was just reading an article earlier today about Adelaide preachers targeting train passengers with their messages of hate. I found the article here: Link

I know that mob. I took this picture from one of the city webcams when they were in the main shopping centre.




The atheists in Adelaide protest at every one of their outdoor meetings. That's why the Christians have resorted to preaching on trains (and in country towns) - they are trying to avoid the atheists and they can do that, only by turning up unexpectedly in strange places.

The Government is determined to stop them altogether, but it is having great difficulty wording the law in such a way that it does not interfere with the rights of normal citizens.


Take another look at the picture above and then consider these words from the preacher:
Almost everyone just sits and listens. One or two people out of the blue might say they don’t want to hear about religion but there have been no real problems.
http://freethinker.c...ssages-of-hate/

[Great Ape]

Hi again Joe

Nice pictures! Thanks for posting them. I can see the confrontation coming through those pictures and I like that the atheists showed up to tell them to get lost.

According to the news report. With the slogans they are saying, which include these;

Homosexuals are sinners.

Women are all sinners.

You are all sinners and will be killed by God.

It makes you wonder if the group of atheists is comprised entirely of atheists. With those slogans they are sure to alienate and anger other groups. I suppose they just can't help themselves. What can you do when the mysterious being in the sky which you worship tells you it is your mission to convert others to your faith. You have no choice but to go out and convert us poor sinners. Religious fanaticism is a scary thing.

It is amazing how they delude themselves in to thinking that no one minds that they are preaching. Yes, people are just sitting there listening. Most say nothing because they are too polite to say anything.


Consider this excerpt from the news article:

The demented Jesus junkie denied preachers were hassling commuters and claimed their methods aboard trains were conducted in a “more gentlemanly” way than the Rundle Mall gatherings.

A more gentlemanly way? I love that. Maybe because they didn't have to argue with the atheists. Silly deluded rabbits.

See those two big silver balls in the picture? The preacher is standing right below them. Just a little push and.........

Edited by Great Ape, 04 January 2012 - 06:12 AM.

[Storybook]

Great Ape, on 03 January 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

We know that our universe was created with the Big Bang. There is plenty of scientific data to refer to on that. It all points to that and most scientists concur. What was there before the Big Bang?

Even if we found out that answer, it would not change one damn thing in living our life today. So I just try to enjoy each day that I am alive in this world.

[Great Ape]

Storybook, on 04 January 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Even if we found out that answer, it would not change one damn thing in living our life today. So I just try to enjoy each day that I am alive in this world.

Yeah, very true. It wouldn't change the way we live. It might give us some more ammunition against the theists though. Wait, no it wouldn't. They would just deny what ever it was anyway.

I like your life philosophy Storybook. I wish i had spent less time worrying over crap I had no control over and couldn't do anything about. I would have had a happier life. I think I will take a page from your book and enjoy each day left to me and not worry so much over this stuff. Thanks.

Edited by Great Ape, 04 January 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[Cousin Ricky]

Joe Bloe, on 03 January 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Where was god before he created the universe (there was nowhere to be)

What was he doing (there was nothing to do)

What was he thinking (there was nothing to think about)

Where was God before he created the universe? There was no god to be anywhere.

What was he doing? There was no god to do anything.

What was he thinking? There was no god to do any thinking.

[Storybook]

Great Ape, on 04 January 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Yeah, very true. It wouldn't change the way we live. It might give us some more ammunition against the theists though. Wait, no it wouldn't. They would just deny what ever it was anyway.

I like your life philosophy Storybook. I wish i had spent less time worrying over crap I had no control over and couldn't do anything about. I would have had a happier life. I think I will take a page from your book and enjoy each day left to me and not worry so much over this stuff. Thanks.

Oh I do worry unnecessarily and I wish I didn't worry as much as I do. I worry about the well being of my loved ones and things like that but i don't worry about the origin of life or questions about god. My husband hardly ever worries and i wish I could be more like him!