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Condolences to EU Citizens And Soon to be Former Euranians

- - - - - brexit uk europe eu xenophobia Obergruppenführer ukip fascism

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#1
Ungodly

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Here at our place we feel that our dear friends in the UK have made an unwise choice.  DH, having been one of Her Majesty's subjects at birth, seems worried about The Olde Country, as he calls it.

 

US citizens should take careful notice of the way xenophobia was used in this campaign, because it sure as hell is being used here too.  Because humans are territorial we have an innate tendency to be xenophobic in the same way we tend toward racism.  We notice others, the ones who are different.  They are from far away, suspicion of them can be easily inculcated.

 

Here in the US we have a big test coming in November.  I hope we don't elect the wrong lizard.

 

 


"Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them."

--Lao Tzu

 


#2
Zeff

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Well, Brexit won't occur for another two years and it isn't impossible that there will be another referendum on the issue. The Danes had a two referendums on Maastricht (1990s) and the Irish on the Lisbon Treaty (2008ish). As a LibDem MEP said, "The EU is like the Hotel California. One can check out but one can never really leave."
Source: Wiki:
Only one member state, 
Ireland, obliged by their constitution, decided on ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon through a referendum, and rejected the treaty a first time.
After rejecting the [Maastricht] treaty in a referendum the previous year, this time it was approved by 56.7% of voters with an 86.5% turnout.


The Scottish National Party are trying to get their referendum in first as they think they see an opening for Scottish "independence"...
http://www.express.c...on-Brexit-UK-EU
National independence is a matter of degree, not absolute. And Sinn Fein want a referendum on a united Ireland. 

Britain is in the EEA (European Economic Area), but if trade negotiations (between the EU and UK) are held under WTO (World Trade Org) rules the EU are going to want the UK to join the Schengen Zone. I wonder how Brexiteers will feel if that is conceded? :-)


I comment on AtheismUK and others comment on the Atheist Republic (for those interested).
http://www.atheistre...it#comment-form

This is my opinion, (if wanted):
I think it is time for calm and carry on. Everyone knew there would be this economic downturn in the short run. Cameron has offered to resign and said he should do so before the Tory Party Conference (Oct 2016). That is just politicking as the alternative may be Boris.

This might be the best thing for Europe. Hopefully, it will stop the rise of right-wing parties in Europe and bring about the changes in the EU many have been calling for.

It isn't just about the economy. Maybe now there will be something done about the "democratic deficit" in the EU. The UK is still in the EEA and as Mr Cameron has said we must ALL now make this work...
https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea
The growth of right-wing parties has to be countered somehow. Uniting European peoples is the aim, not just creating dysfunctional and inefficient institutions. (The EU still can't decide on a capital city and spends £millions moving EU Parliament between Brussels and Strasbourg each month.) Increasing the political unity only at the highest level without the economic and other convergence that everyone had once agreed was a prerequisite for political convergence wasn't achieving greater unity. Nor was it providing the greater economic prosperity it implies. (Greece, Euro and the rise of extreme parties). There could be far more damaging consequences for Europe than merely a Brexit. This could be the shot-in-the-arm the EU needs. It depends on what happens next.

It doesn't affect NATO. There will be no legal vacuum or political instability. Change has to happen by some means and in a timely way as lack of change (too much stability) can also be a bad thing.

One of the things to learn from this is about politicians scaremongering. If Mr Cameron, Mr Major, Mr Junker, et al had stopped blathering about us taking a momentous decision on behalf of future generations and had pointed out things like the loss of our AAA credit rating this Brexit probably wouldn't have happened. We can apply to rejoin the EU at any future date.

People might think about when referendums are appropriate and what they are meant to achieve too.

The best thing is to keep Europe working together.

Mr G Brown famously accused someone of bigotry....
https://www.youtube....h?v=3JZP-W0FAXg
I doubt Xenophobia or prejudice are important to the discussion on Brexit. If there are instances it helps to be specific. Otherwise "they" did "it". I hope everyone might agree that people should be able to demand a referendum on Brexit or discuss immigration issues without being accused of xenophobia or prejudice, either individually or collectively. Talking freely on these subjects without being accused of something malign can seem to be a problem in the UK sometimes. 

Sorry for the long post, but I honestly feel there's a lot of misunderstanding on this subject and I didn't want the discussion to be about a bunch of xenophobes. 


Edited by Zeff, 24 June 2016 - 09:15 AM.


#3
Cousin Ricky

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I doubt Xenophobia or prejudice are important to the discussion on Brexit.

 

Commentary I've seen from other Brits on-line is that xenophobic demagoguery was a major factor in the vote.

 

Although, admittedly, I get the sense that many Brits are chafing at the sense of loss of sovereignty under the European Parliament. Are you familiar with Pat Condell?


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#4
Cousin Ricky

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What the...?

 

The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it (Washington Post)


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#5
Zeff

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I don't know whether I'm laughing at the article or your reaction to it. I take it you're not British then?! :-)

One of the problems with the EU is that nobody knows what it is, (sometimes even MEPs and others who work there, I think). Ask the average Brit who his MEP is, or who the President of the EU is, what the difference is between the Council of Ministers and the EU Commission and you'll get the blankest look a human can ever make. (The Council of Ministers doesn't even exist, by the way. It's official title is Council of the European Union, but there are so many councils that they actually refer to it more descriptively). 

As for "Commentary I've seen from other Brits on-line is that xenophobic demagoguery was a major factor in the vote."  Maybe if people go on about that enough they'll make it the truth. I prefer to make the point that Lord Jones made: if we in Remain had won we would expect Leave to try once again to make the EU work and it is incumbent on us to react as positively. 

We all want a better Europe, but we should discuss what Xenophobes and demagogues want if that is thought to be so important and effective. Perhaps a clear example could be offered? 

I have heard of Pat Condell and enjoyed listening to him. I like him, he's like me when I've hit my thumb with a hammer. 

No posts below this one, at this point, so let me add this, quote:

Could Scotland and Northern Ireland, in effect, be a reverse Greenland, staying in the EU even as the biggest part of the UK leaves? It’d be complex, sure. And it depends on the exact border and trade deals which the rest of the UK ends up signing up to. But EU expert professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott of Queen Mary University has argued it might be doable.

As she says: “It is possible for only part of a state to secede from the EU. Further, it would be ill-considered to dismiss Greenland as a precedent on the basis that Greenland is too small and unimportant to be significant.” Source:
http://www.independe...p-a7100736.html

What about London? 


Edited by Zeff, 25 June 2016 - 04:46 AM.


#6
Joe Bloe

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Ask the average Brit who his MEP is, or who the President of the EU is, what the difference is between the Council of Ministers and the EU Commission and you'll get the blankest look a human can ever make.

 

Years ago there was a Professor of political science at the Adelaide University who often told the story about how little some people knew about politics. When he was invited to speak to members of the right-wing Liberal Party (for example) he would remind the audience of their political goals by reading from the Liberal Party manifesto. There would be loud cheers as each item was presented.

 

Then he would pause --- apologise --- and point out that he had made a mistake and he was, in fact, reading the manifesto of the left-wing Labor Party.


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Believe nothing you hear and only half what you see.

#7
Ungodly

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Could Scotland and Northern Ireland, in effect, be a reverse Greenland, staying in the EU even as the biggest part of the UK leaves? 

 

I'm hearing lots of expressions of Scotland wanting to stay in the EU, and Northern Ireland wanting to finally unify the emerald isle.  That would be pretty much the end of the UK.   Sure, there would still be Oz and Canuckistan, but they are not so much under Her Majesty's thumb.


"Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them."

--Lao Tzu

 


#8
Cousin Ricky

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Where does Wales fit into all of this?


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#9
Cousin Ricky

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Sure, there would still be Oz and Canuckistan, but they are not so much under Her Majesty's thumb.

 

It seems to me that having the monarch of a foreign state be the titular head of state of your own country means as much to Aussies and Canucks as having the same flag colors as the UK means to us Americans.


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#10
Zeff

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http://www.euronews....ommission-says/
Barroso said in an interview in February [2014] that [a newly independent] Scotland would need to apply to join the EU. The [European] Commission says that’s how things stand today [2014]. “This position has not changed, is on the record...” Unquote.
It is possible that the President and some EU Commissioners had absolutely no idea of the legal position when they commented on it. 

https://en.wikipedia..._Manuel_Barroso

Wales is still adjacent and to the West of England - so far.   :-)

Wales voted for Brexit and is so far not in favor of independence from the UK. Constitutionally, it is a principality not a kingdom, so it has a National Assembly not a Parliament. The UK "Constitution" is unwritten and Wales may become an independent country if they so choose.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-36616028
 


Edited by Zeff, 26 June 2016 - 12:14 AM.


#11
Cousin Ricky

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The UK "Constitution" is unwritten and Wales may become an independent country if they so choose. 

 

So, the royals may have to find a new title for their crown prince!

 

 

Wow, zero Scottish counties voted to leave!


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#12
Joe Bloe

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From 7News Australia:
 

UK has no idea how to leave the EU
Post-Brexit turmoil has erupted in the UK with politicians conceding there is no plan on how exactly to leave the EU.

https://au.news.yaho...e-the-eu/#page1

 

I wonder where they got that headline from? It's not true is it?


Believe nothing you hear and only half what you see.

#13
Ungodly

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I wonder where they got that headline from? It's not true is it?

 

I think they mean that the nationalists who wanted Brexit don't know what to do now.  There does seem to be a lot of panic and anxiety on both sides of the channel.


"Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them."

--Lao Tzu

 


#14
Zeff

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Follow "young" Corporal Jones's advice...
http://www.heatmyhom...ay#.U8lQmvldUng
He's a famous UK TV character. 

Thank you for all the comments here, for your attention to this topic and to Ungodly for starting the thread.

Scotland overwhelmingly supports Remain, but the turn out in Glasgow for the referendum was only 62% and many Scots like me do not support any EU.

Thanks for the link to Mr Whitield’s 7News report. It is sensational nonsense with enough truth to be very misleading.

The truth (I think) is that we are moving into unknown territory as no large nation has previously left the EU. The Brexit deal will be determined if a number of acts are repealed in the UK (e.g. the 1972 EU act) and IF Article50 is invoked. The technical details of a Brexit may or may not depend on our membership of the EEA and there is much that is legal and technical to sort out. Please remember this paragraph when seeing reports of what’s happening as what is important is often boring. A racist attack sells media coverage.

It has nothing to do with all the racism you hear about. There are 70 million Brits faced with arguably overwhelming immigration. 5 million net by 2025 has been mentioned. Another headline: UK population was 13.1% foreign-born, up from 7% in 1993. Under-reporting of immigration has been mentioned and as EU admittance is generally not restricted nobody is really certain of exact figures. On top of that there is a major problem of illegal immigration. There is also ‘healthcare shopping’, people using relatives here to take advantage (or try to) of our largely free health care. Immigration, particularly from the EU, is often of the sort we don’t want and can’t control due to EU laws (which often take precedence over UK law). There are racist incidents, some of which are appalling. They are criminal matters and shouldn’t distract us from what’s going on and is important. They have nothing to do with Brexit and almost nothing 
to do with UKIP to which Party many hooligans and extremists have unfortunately attached themselves. 

The activation of Article 50 now looks unlikely before October this year. Another referendum shouldn't be entirely ruled out as a case for one is being built. The Brexiteers are led by Boris Johnson who described his decision to support Brexit and not Remain as "one of the hardest decisions I have ever had to make". They may be mollified and agree to accommodate one more referendum. 

Keep calm and carry on :-)

(Stuff the royals. We have real problems).



#15
Zeff

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Mr Cameron has NOT resigned and said no such thing. He said he intends to stand down by the Tory Party Conference in October (2016). A number of Shadow Ministers have left the Shadow Cabinet due to the events leading to the success of Mr Jeremy Corbyn in  winning the leadership of the Labour Party. This seriously split the Party which is also somewhat split on EU membership. These resignations you hear of are about Mr Corbyn now (apparently) establishing his position and filling the Shadow Cabinet with people fully behind the Party's planned manifesto. That he is entitled if not duty-bound to accomplish.

I wouldn’t call it panic (both sides of La Manche) though there is great concern. There are important issues at stake which I can’t outline for all the writing I have to do to explain why the media reports are misleading, irrelevant or occasionally scurrilous. 



#16
Zeff

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Sorry if you’ve moved on. Please understand my preoccupation. Long post, so I tried to extract salient points. 

Independent EU cities in the UK?...
http://www.express.c...tics-referendum
Supporters say the coastal city, where almost seven in 10 people voted to remain in the EU at last week’s referendum, could then choose its own path and dictate its own affairs.


http://londonist.com...dent-city-state
..Given these boroughs are on the edges, an independent London could theoretically carve itself out around them. But:
a  that's going to involve border crossings on the M25 (and one small bit of the North Circular in Barking)
b  London would probably want to keep Heathrow........
And let's not think about sealed trains shuttling people up to Scotland.

(M25 is London’s outer ring-road. N & S Circular is the inner one)

If London tried to cope with housing its working population on its own...we would either:
a  fail
b  have to build a lot of skyscrapers
c  kiss goodbye to the green belt.


http://www.independe...n-a7100601.html
..Meanwhile, many cosmopolitan Northern cities – Manchester, Liverpool and my own hometown of Newcastle included – voted Remain. Most markedly, my new, adopted hometown of London voted overwhelmingly to stay: 60 per cent of boroughs voted against a Brexit, and in my constituency of Hackney 78.5 per cent voted against Brexit. 94 per cent of the borough of Southwark did the same.

 

London is a very different beast to the rest of the UK – statistically just as different as Scotland (62 per cent for Remain) and Northern Ireland (56 per cent). Immigration to London is higher than anywhere else in England, for obvious reasons. It also has a much younger average age – the median age in London was 34.0 years  in 2012, compared with 39.7 years in the rest of the UK, and the city has the lowest regional percentage of people aged 65 and over (11.3 per cent of the population)...

....
London is already somewhat of a city state, and City Hall could easily become a London Parliament. In 2014, theFinancial Times reported that “barely 7 per cent of all tax paid by London’s residents and businesses is retained by its mayor and boroughs....

... London has a population right now that is bigger than Scotland and Wales put together and generates 22 per cent of the UK’s GDP while being home to only 12.5 per cent of the UK’s population; its economy is the size of Sweden’s...

Unquote.
Oddly, the article didn’t emphasise the importants of the financial and banking industries to London.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rendum-36620401

A petition calling for Sadiq Khan to declare London an independent state after the UK voted to quit the EU has been signed by thousands of people.
Unquote.

Interestingly I hear little buyers remorse from Brexiteers who still think this can work better than EU membership. The financial costs, though large, have been lower (so far) or no higher than Remainers had warned. I think relatively few voters dismissed such warnings as scaremongering.


Edited by Zeff, 29 June 2016 - 12:33 AM.


#17
Zeff

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Theresa May has said, "Brexit means Brexit" and I hear no Tory other than Mr Kenneth Clarke is pointing out that most Brits don't want Brexit and there is time for a more informed referendum and decision. It looks most likely that in a few years there will be an independent Scotland and the UK will be outside Europe, losing a tenth of its population, nearly a third of its land area and perhaps 68% of its natural resources. 

And Brexiteers still think there will be a good trade deal with few tariffs or quotas required in exchange for non-appliance of EU directives and laws, the abandonment of the EU principle of free movement of workers as well as more Britain-useful controls on immigration. If they get most of that, Brexit was certainly the way to go. 

Sensible policies for a happier Britains?! 

There has been no important Labour opposition since David Miliband lost the leadership battle to his brother David (2010) and there is infighting at this point due many of the far left and Socialist Worker movement joining the Labour Party. Now it may move even further left and nobody trusted it with the economy in 2010 or 2015. The LibDems don't seem to be able to take advantage of this situation either. The remarkable lack of articulate and effective opposition is one of the reasons for this unfortunate development (Brexit). 

It is not that Britain can't survive. It may well still prosper, but I have serious doubts we can do as well as we were doing using our influence within the EU. A possible Brexit was useful in opposing the 'European superstate' movement and moderating its excesses and bullying. It was only useful though if European politicians (and voters) saw that Brexit was a symptom of discontent with the EU throughout Europe. It is now viewed more as if it is due to an inward-looking or even xenophobic population. The Tories have now squandered UK influence and political capital in Europe for supposed increased freedom to govern ourselves. 

Europe bears some responsibility too. Many of us were put-off voting for Remain by remarks by people like Mr Junker who seemed to want a Brexit and take a 'leave if you dare' approach. He and others want ever closer European union regardless whether the all-important economic, legal and other convergences are there or not. (The idea when the UK joined the EU was that such convergences would be achieved first). Junker's group see the EU as in competition with national governments for state sovereignty, whereas most Europeans actually seem to favor a primarily economic union that inspires European countries to join. Junker et al versus the UK & Netherlands represent different visions for the EU in that respect. That was a crucial issue in the Brexit debate. 

Greece and Cyprus illustrate what happens when EU membership happens prematurely. The UK was always a supporter of EU expansion but those memberships do not seem to have been handled very honestly. Proponents for EU admission said Greece was ready for both the EU and the Euro when it plainly wasn't. They said EU membership wouldn't impede peace or the unification of Cyprus when it possibly did. The EU had backing for absorbing them partly because it was important that Greece and Cypress didn't fall under the influence of Russia and perhaps join their Eurasian Economic Union, rejecting EU stances on human rights. Greek politics could have gone much farther left than they have done. 

(Thanks to anyone who bothered reading this! It makes me feel better)   :-)


Edited by Zeff, 30 June 2016 - 04:49 AM.


#18
Cousin Ricky

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I didn't realize Cyprus was talking about reunification. Although, with talk of Turkey joining the EU, I suppose that would be a big issue.


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#19
Zeff

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Sorry to babble on about UK politics. Please tell me if these comments get naff or unwanted.

Two developments ongoing at present: One is the appropriation of the Labour Party by the Socialist Worker movement which makes (UK) Labour unelectable. (Some in Scottish Labour are even talking of official separation from the UK Labour Party though they have ruled out supporting Scottish Independence). The other is this...
http://www.moreunited.uk/
which I hope stems from a widespread feeling that the UK needs an up-to-date and electable loyal opposition. I think we also need to reform and modernize our system of government.

(By the way, the British Humanist Association has a new website)



#20
Joe Bloe

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Sorry to babble on about UK politics. Please tell me if these comments get naff or unwanted.

 

Keep the comments coming. There's always something going on and it's always interesting.


Believe nothing you hear and only half what you see.



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: brexit, uk, europe, eu, xenophobia, Obergruppenführer, ukip, fascism

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