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It's virtually impossible to "escape" from religion

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#1
Aging Disgracefully

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This is the first time in my life I wasn't working on an Inauguration Day so I watched as much of it as I could stomach.  All the preachers, pastors..whatever they were, so many many prayers and visits to churches and religious songs.

 

And all I can ever think is do all of these people really believe this shit!?!  I'm thinking a lot of them have to be lying, pretending to believe, man I just don't get it.  I know I must sound incredibility naive.  But I have had no religion in my life ever and really just never pay much attention. I know. Really!?! but yeah.....

 

We, the mister and I,  almost live like hermits, we have very little living family members and a small circle of atheists and agnostic (nobody is perfect [smilie=hrmm.gif] ) friends.

 

 I can count on one hand, ok both hands the amount of times in almost 65 years I've ever been to a wedding or a funeral.  I used to joke when entering a church that I hoped I didn't burst into flames.

 

ANYWAY...my point is, yes there is a point, there is no freedom from religion. It is fucking everywhere. 


“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.” 
 
  Kurt Vonnegut
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


#2
Cousin Ricky

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And all I can ever think is do all of these people really believe this shit!?!  I'm thinking a lot of them have to be lying, pretending to believe, man I just don't get it.

 

I can’t say all, but some of them, perhaps most, really do believe it. I’ve been there.

The human brain is a belief engine. There is no fail-safe on that engine. It takes work to ensure that its beliefs comport with reality, and it takes awareness to realize that the work is needed in the first place. A few people are lucky enough to believe true things at the outset. Most aren’t.

Ironically, many people are taught that it is necessary to work hard to believe things that don’t comport with reality. These are the people who fight disconfirming evidence in order to maintain their faith. Some believers recognize this as intellectual dishonesty. These are destined to become Deists or atheists once they take a hard look at their faith.

Some of these Deists and atheists pretend to believe in order to avoid negative repercussions from their “loving” religious communities, but they wouldn’t be in this predicament if everyone were pretending. If that were the case, all it would take is one person to point out that the emperor has no clothes, and the whole house of cards would collapse.

 

Ultimately, for myself in any case, the work required to align my beliefs with reality is more satisfying and less uncomfortable than the work required to maintain my beliefs in the face of disconfirming evidence. Cognitive dissonance is a bitch once you notice it. I’m sure this would be the case for almost everyone, but they would first have to be disabused of the notion that faith is a virtue.


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#3
Aging Disgracefully

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I would think living in reality is much easier and it doesn't screw up your Sunday either, or Saturday. Or your entire life for that matter !!

 

Well I gotta say I really don't think all the believers in the world would actually be pretending to believe except for conformity. But it's so hard for me to come up with a rational explanation.  

I thought you explained things quite well to me. I'm starting to sound like I was raised in the woods by wolves, because of my lack of familiarity or really any interest in religion(s).

 

I can't comprehend how so many people actually believe there is a supreme being somewhere that actually gives a crap about them, in any way shape or form.  So then I start to question them actually believing in a God, because it seems so ludicrous to me.

 

I normally don't spend much time wondering about this, but after my over exposure to religious falderal yesterday it just made me wonder about things.

 

I'd actually put more stock in the Ancient Alien theory, or if I could get a religious person to accept the notion that their God is an Alien if nothing else, because I don't believe he/she or it is from around here.  I've said it before I do think Joseph Smith got the closet to the truth of any of the fairy tales, I mean religions.  I do like how he came up with his made up version of religion.

 

 It's so obvious that the "two personages" that appeared to him where Space Aliens.  It is known far and wide throughout all the galaxies and universes that Earth, or as they call it......The Planet of The Gullibles.  Anyway Earth is a fun place to visit, because almost the entire population of the planet can be fooled into thinking any scruffy looking nerf-herder is a God. Good times to be had on Earth I tell you.

 

I think I'd like to write a Sci-fi story. 

 

Anyway...I'm glad you found reality Cousin Ricky.  


“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.” 
 
  Kurt Vonnegut
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


#4
jonathanlobl

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People are so caught up in the disaster that is President Trump.  We are overlooking the horror that is Vice President Pence.  The new Cabinet is awful beyond words.

 

Madness has prevailed.  We are so screwed.  Oh, the horror.


Edited by jonathanlobl, 21 January 2017 - 02:07 PM.

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#5
Aging Disgracefully

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People are so caught up in the disaster that is President Trump.  We are overlooking the horror that is Vice President Pence.  The new Cabinet is awful beyond words.

 

Madness has prevailed.  We are so screwed.  Oh, the horror.

Oh yeah, let me summarize it with one word...Clusterfuck 


“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.” 
 
  Kurt Vonnegut
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


#6
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No claim can be made that shall be so stupid not a single human will believe it.  The stupidity of a claim does not reduce the likelihood it will be believed, at least not enough.

 

As Cousin Ricky says, the human mind was designed to believe and to do so much more readily and quickly than it investigates.  We have to take deliberate, intentional precautions in order to think clearly and understand reality more accurately.  That's why it took eons for science to emerge as such a dominant factor in our society.

 

We see all over the world that the poorest and most violent places are also the most religious.  Chicken?  Egg? Self sustaining stupidity systems?  

 

As the New American Religion of pro-corporate, fascist repression for Jesus continues to develop in the US our economy and standing in the world will decline more rapidly.

 

Just say NO to ridiculous ancient superstitions exploited by narcissistic sociopaths!


"Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them."

--Lao Tzu

 


#7
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  Wealth and religion are the rulers and ruiners of the world. 


“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.” 
 
  Kurt Vonnegut
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


#8
jonathanlobl

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I'm still in shock.  The Horror.........


Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
"We don't know and we don't care."

Minister, First Church of Atheism (05/10/2008)


"Never trust the clergy!" Jonathan Lobl

#9
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Religious delusions are an extremely common phenomenon among humans as a result of an intense desire to believe something which far exceeds the logical prowess of most instances of homo sapiens.

 

Fortunately some humans manage to overcome these bullshit-based delusional belief systems, while others never succumb to them in the first place, for example children of rational parents or thoughtful youth who reject fairy tales out of hand.

 

The latter group are able to contribute to the species by using their predilection for clear thinking to invent, improve, design, and build infrastructure and technological items that benefit all.

 

Perhaps clear thinking is both a benefit and a burden?  Suppose it is our social duty to help inform those less logical when their delusions lead them to harm others or themselves?

 

Once there was a disgusting, racist policy described as the white man's burden, as if to suggest ethnic groups we encountered that were less obsessed with advanced weapons were somehow inferior, and we owed it to them to make them like us - for Jesus.

 

That's bullshit, of course. And we must guard against being likewise too eager to spread the Good Word of just thinking for yourself.  People don't like to have their ideas assailed. So while we are trying to help those who are rationally-challenged we must refrain from banning their superstition clubs, inhibiting their freedoms, or otherwise being assholes ourselves.

 

Clearly there is a critical mass that can be achieved.  In modern Europe one can travel about or turn on a radio without constantly having obnoxious fairy tales bombard one's eyes or ears.  Despite lingering religious minorities dogma does not rule Western European nations.  It can be done.

 

I would like to say that a disaster like Tweety McThinskin could not have happened in a less religious nation, but ***cough***Brexit***cough***, ***cough***France***cough*** for some reason, well one does not wish to overstate one's case.


"Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them."

--Lao Tzu

 


#10
Frozenwolf150

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I have found that the motivation behind nearly every decision or action justified by religion is actually social, political, or economic first.  If you give someone a Bible or Qu'ran, they're not going to become a fanatic on contact, and the vast majority of people raised into religious beliefs do not become extremists either.  To a person whose life is not adversely affected by those other factors, a religious text is just a book of old stories.  However, to a person who is worried about their future, their children, their jobs, their health, or their very lives, a religious text becomes both a source of comfort and a weapon for lashing out.

 

From:

http://www.apa.org/m.../terrorism.aspx

 

 

...people who are more open to terrorist recruitment and radicalization tend to:

  • Feel angry, alienated or disenfranchised.

  • Believe that their current political involvement does not give them the power to effect real change.

  • Identify with perceived victims of the social injustice they are fighting.

  • Feel the need to take action rather than just talking about the problem.

  • Believe that engaging in violence against the state is not immoral.

  • Have friends or family sympathetic to the cause.

  • Believe that joining a movement offers social and psychological rewards such as adventure, camaraderie and a heightened sense of identity.

 

 

These are the same reasons people believe in conspiracy theories, or vote for authoritarian leaders.  If you're someone living through times of economic uncertainty, and have suffered due to factors beyond your control, then the world seems to make very little sense.  Conspiracy theories, like creationism and other religious narratives, provide an explanation for how the world works in a way that's structured, predictable, and easy to understand.  They provide comfort to the people who believe them.  Most importantly, they provide a clearly identified common enemy to rally against and blame for all of one's problems; whether that enemy is the government, members of other religions (including nonbelievers), or the other political party or side (liberals vs. conservatives).  People throughout history have gravitated towards authoritarians because those leaders offer a sense of security, stability, and pride through unity.

Here's a breakdown of how religious people voted:

http://www.pewresear...-2016-analysis/

 

 

Of particular interest is how, among different Christian groups, there were strong divisions along racial/ethnic lines.  So it's fair to say that white evangelicals heavily favored Trump, but the same is not true for groups like Hispanic Catholics or black Christians.


Edited by Frozenwolf150, 30 January 2017 - 03:52 PM.

What do Islamic terrorism and white nationalist terrorism have in common?  Both are supported by Donald Trump.


#11
jonathanlobl

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Religious delusions are an extremely common phenomenon among humans as a result of an intense desire to believe something which far exceeds the logical prowess of most instances of homo sapiens.

 

Fortunately some humans manage to overcome these bullshit-based delusional belief systems, while others never succumb to them in the first place, for example children of rational parents or thoughtful youth who reject fairy tales out of hand.

 

The latter group are able to contribute to the species by using their predilection for clear thinking to invent, improve, design, and build infrastructure and technological items that benefit all.

 

Perhaps clear thinking is both a benefit and a burden?  Suppose it is our social duty to help inform those less logical when their delusions lead them to harm others or themselves?

 

Once there was a disgusting, racist policy described as the white man's burden, as if to suggest ethnic groups we encountered that were less obsessed with advanced weapons were somehow inferior, and we owed it to them to make them like us - for Jesus.

 

That's bullshit, of course. And we must guard against being likewise too eager to spread the Good Word of just thinking for yourself.  People don't like to have their ideas assailed. So while we are trying to help those who are rationally-challenged we must refrain from banning their superstition clubs, inhibiting their freedoms, or otherwise being assholes ourselves.

 

Clearly there is a critical mass that can be achieved.  In modern Europe one can travel about or turn on a radio without constantly having obnoxious fairy tales bombard one's eyes or ears.  Despite lingering religious minorities dogma does not rule Western European nations.  It can be done.

 

I would like to say that a disaster like Tweety McThinskin could not have happened in a less religious nation, but ***cough***Brexit***cough***, ***cough***France***cough*** for some reason, well one does not wish to overstate one's case.

 

 

Trump is not, by himself, the problem.  Trump is only how the stink and rot manifested.

 

Trump is like the flies buzzing around a dead animal.  Or a foul trash can.  The flies are not the cause of the stink.  They are the result.

 

In the same way, Trump is not the problem.  The problem is all the people who were willing -- even eager -- to vote for him.

 

Trump's campaign slogan was "Make America Great Again.".  By voting for Trump, we have proved that America is not great.  A great people would never have elected him.  Again, his orangeness is not the cause of America's disgrace.  He is only a symptom.

 

Oh, the shame of it.  The Horror.


Edited by jonathanlobl, 30 January 2017 - 07:32 PM.

Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
"We don't know and we don't care."

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#12
Cousin Ricky

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Trump is not, by himself, the problem.  Trump is only how the stink and rot manifested.

 

Trump is like the flies buzzing around a dead animal.  Or a foul trash can.  The flies are not the cause of the stink.  They are the result.

 

In the same way, Trump is not the problem.  The problem is all the people who were willing -- even eager -- to vote for him.

 

Trump's campaign slogan was "Make America Great Again.".  By voting for Trump, we have proved that America is not great.  A great people would never have elected him.  Again, his orangeness is not the cause of America's disgrace.  He is only a symptom.

 

Oh, the shame of it.  The Horror.

 

I almost agree, except that I believe that the people who were willing, though not eager (i.e., the half of Trump voters who were not in the basket of deplorables), are also symptoms. The problems there are a political system that is driven by money instead of the people, and a culture that has been carefully cultivated over the past few decades to dismiss objective reality.

 

Also, the fact that there are so many deplorables in the first place may also be a symptom of the same force that cultivated the fact-averse culture. People like these should have mostly died off by now—after all, it's been half a century since the civil rights movement—but one of our political parties has been nursing prejudice and xenophobia in successive generations, all for political reasons. It's finally come back to bite them, but that doesn't make things any easier for the rest of us.


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#13
jonathanlobl

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I almost agree, except that I believe that the people who were willing, though not eager (i.e., the half of Trump voters who were not in the basket of deplorables), are also symptoms. The problems there are a political system that is driven by money instead of the people, and a culture that has been carefully cultivated over the past few decades to dismiss objective reality.

 

Also, the fact that there are so many deplorables in the first place may also be a symptom of the same force that cultivated the fact-averse culture. People like these should have mostly died off by now—after all, it's been half a century since the civil rights movement—but one of our political parties has been nursing prejudice and xenophobia in successive generations, all for political reasons. It's finally come back to bite them, but that doesn't make things any easier for the rest of us.

 

 

We have nothing to prove.  As the new regime causes havoc, pain and suffering; the truth will be evident.

 

As they say in Louisiana, Let the good times roll.


Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
"We don't know and we don't care."

Minister, First Church of Atheism (05/10/2008)


"Never trust the clergy!" Jonathan Lobl

#14
Aging Disgracefully

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We have nothing to prove.  As the new regime causes havoc, pain and suffering; the truth will be evident.

 

As they say in Louisiana, Let the good times roll.

I so agree and have to use this type of thinking as my life line, we don't have a thing to prove, the proof will be in the pudding.  Let the good time rolls indeed! 


“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.” 
 
  Kurt Vonnegut
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


#15
jonathanlobl

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I so agree and have to use this type of thinking as my life line, we don't have a thing to prove, the proof will be in the pudding.  Let the good time rolls indeed! 

 

 

It is similar to being Atheist.  What do we have to prove?  Nothing.  It is for the supporters of his orangeness to prove that he is not a monster.  It is for the believers to establish that they are not delusional.  Actually, that applies to both types of believers.

 

What a world.  It gets more crazy by the day.


Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
"We don't know and we don't care."

Minister, First Church of Atheism (05/10/2008)


"Never trust the clergy!" Jonathan Lobl

#16
Aging Disgracefully

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It is similar to being Atheist.  What do we have to prove?  Nothing.  It is for the supporters of his orangeness to prove that he is not a monster.  It is for the believers to establish that they are not delusional.  Actually, that applies to both types of believers.

 

What a world.  It gets more crazy by the day.

 

 

Yes indeed and our country is like a big festering boil !

 

Getting most of The Talking Hemorrhoid's followers to see or admit he is bat shit crazy has about as much of a chance as turning good church goin' bigots into Atheists.  These people are delusional on some level that is really new to me, like alternative Universe craziness.  Even they MUST have some limits.

 

 I think of how fortunate we are, I am, to be living in this country and I always felt safe and warm. Now not so much, I fear for the world. 


“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.” 
 
  Kurt Vonnegut
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


#17
jonathanlobl

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I took this thread on more of a detour than I intended.  Back to the original point.

 

Religion is everywhere.  It's hard to live with and impossible to destroy.  That leaves making fun of it.

 

I used to enjoy arguing about God's existence.  Now, I can't take the idea serious enough to argue about it.  It's all so deeply -- silly.  It's like having a serious discussion about how Peter Pan flies.  


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Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
"We don't know and we don't care."

Minister, First Church of Atheism (05/10/2008)


"Never trust the clergy!" Jonathan Lobl

#18
Aging Disgracefully

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I took this thread on more of a detour than I intended.  Back to the original point.

 

Religion is everywhere.  It's hard to live with and impossible to destroy.  That leaves making fun of it.

 

I used to enjoy arguing about God's existence.  Now, I can't take the idea serious enough to argue about it.  It's all so deeply -- silly.  It's like having a serious discussion about how Peter Pan flies.  

That is so profound and exactly how I feel about it. It's too ludicrous for me to even entertain the idea, the idea of God, or the idea of trying to argue with The Deluded.

 

How I escape is living like a semi-hermit.  I'm out and about all the time, but very few people are allowed to invade my personal space, my hearth and home. Or as I call it My Fortress of Solitude. I am married, but he is out in the garage a lot. 


“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.” 
 
  Kurt Vonnegut
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


#19
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T'other day I was cooking dinner when a pair of young Mor[m]ons on foot appeared at our gate.  I have been considering inviting some of these youth up here to sit and chat, but in this case I had multiple pots and pans going on the stove and did not have time for petty shit like idiots on stupid.

 

So i used our gate intercom to say "Sorry gentlemen, we're not interested in any sky monsters today".

 

I doubt I'd be able to poke a hole in their well defended bubble of ignorance, but I might enjoy trying if they return at a more convenient time..


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#20
Aging Disgracefully

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T'other day I was cooking dinner when a pair of young Mor[m]ons on foot appeared at our gate.  I have been considering inviting some of these youth up here to sit and chat, but in this case I had multiple pots and pans going on the stove and did not have time for petty shit like idiots on stupid.

 

So i used our gate intercom to say "Sorry gentlemen, we're not interested in any sky monsters today".

 

I doubt I'd be able to poke a hole in their well defended bubble of ignorance, but I might enjoy trying if they return at a more convenient time..

Oh I'd call that dodging a bullet. Just a few mintues ago I walked over to the Post Office to get our mail just as 2 couples of All Along the Watchtower people, or Jehovah Witless if you prefer, we canvassing the neighborhood. I walked between two big shrubs and totally missed them. I found their sad little pamphlet under my front door mat when I returned.

 

But oh boy, next time they come to our door, if I do answer it, I'm saying ..."Oh sorry not interested in any Sky Monster fairy tales today."  


“Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.” 
 
  Kurt Vonnegut
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 



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