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An Update to My Vocabulary

- - - - - Islamic Islamism Islamist Islamist terrorism terrorism

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#1
Cousin Ricky

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Neoconservatives say we must use the phrase Islamic terrorism. Corporatists, whether Democrat or Republican, resist the phrase as a generalization. They both have a point, and they are both partly incorrect.

Sam Harris et al. have a point; the majority of global extra-governmental terrorists do so in the name of Islam. Many of those who, for good reason, avoid the term Islamic terrorism seem to display a naïveté about the dangers latent in Islamic teaching. On the other hand, I think Harris is stretching the point too far, and of course, the neocons are just plain bigots. Terrorism is not particularly Islamic: within the USA, most terrorism is perpetrated by Christian extremists, and in Sri Lanka (where the suicide vest was invented) the terrorism was purely political, not religious. And, of course, the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, and the vast majority of the victims of terrorism are Muslims. The only thing unique about the violence perpetrated in the name of Islam is our particular time and geopolitical circumstance in history.

Luckily, there is a term for that minority of Muslims who seek to impose their interpretation of Islam by force on other people: Islamist. I will never use the term Islamic terrorism, but henceforth, I will speak boldly of Islamist terrorism.

 

Islamist terrorism. That is the term.

 
Of course, all Muslims are wrong about the existence of their sky monster, but that is their right, and I will not begrudge them that. (This is not condescension; we are all wrong about something.)


“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#2
jonathanlobl

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The Christian parallel term for Islamist, is Christer.  


Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
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#3
Frozenwolf150

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There's one thing that pisses me off about Islamophobes-- actually everything pisses me off about them.

 

For starters, every major religion has had violent extremists to its name.  I repeatedly hear deplorables say that Islam is the most violent religion, but they're basing this off the fact that they don't consider religion to be the primary motivation whenever a Christian commits an act of violence, even if it's a bias crime.  For example, things like this have happened and yet the media hesitates to call it "Christian extremist terrorism" because it doesn't fit the narrative that all terrorists are Muslim.  People also act as if the only terrorist organizations are Muslim, even though the largest and most prominent home-grown Christian terrorist organization still very much exists and had endorsed Trump.

 

Secondly, there's the fact that the majority of the victims of ISIS are Muslims.  As I've said before, ISIS doesn't care that it kills innocent Muslims, because to them, anyone who doesn't submit to their radical ideology is a heretic deserving of death.  To say that the refugees, immigrants, and peaceful American Muslims are the "same religion" as ISIS is like saying that the Protestants and Catholics during the Reformation Wars were the "same religion."  Hell, the fact that ISIS kills other Muslims tells me that they are better at discriminating between different groups of Muslims than the deplorables are.

 

Third, I often hear Islamophobes insulting and attacking American Muslims for not condemning the atrocities that are committed in majority Muslim countries.  Take a look at some of the bullshit that was said about Linda Sarsour after she spoke at the Women's March.  The deplorables were spamming every single video I could find of Sarsour's speech with comments like, "She won't condemn honor killings, beheadings, or acid attacks," and, "How can she speak for women when she comes from a religion that rapes and mutilates women?"

Did it ever occur to these deplorables that Muslim immigrants and refugees are coming to America because they're fleeing these types of atrocities at home?  Did it ever occur to them that a Muslim woman might feel safer living in America than in the parts of the world where such atrocities might be done to her?  No, of course not.

 

Fourth, Muslims are actually our best allies in the fight against ISIS and Al-Qaeda.  At the forefront of the war against ISIS are various Kurdish groups, such as the Peshmerga, and Kurds are predominantly Muslim (although this is a simplification since there's a great deal of diversity within the ethnicity).  Among the people who were detained after the Muslim ban was signed are Iraqis who had helped the US in the war, whether as translators or contractors, risking their lives and the lives of their families. These are the kinds of people Islamophobes are pushing away because they're too stupid to tell the difference.

 

Fifth, every short-sighted and idiotic anti-Muslim policy enacted by the US plays right into the hands of ISIS.  When the US kills innocent civilians (to be fair, Obama did this too) preaches hate against Muslims, or does what the Deplorable Jackass Tyrant did last week; that's basically free propaganda for ISIS.  ISIS has been trying to set the narrative that there's a culture war between the West and Islam, since they believe this conflict is necessary to bring about their desired apocalypse.  They radicalize people by saying, America hates Muslims, so your only other choice is to join us.

 

The reason some leaders, like Obama, tried to avoid using terms like "Islamic terrorism" is that ISIS desperately wants the world to believe that it alone is the voice of true Islam.  It's in their name itself.  They want legitimacy as a state, and they want to be the face of Islam.  So whenever some ignorant fuck says that all Muslims are terrorists, supports policies that oppress and discriminate against Muslims, or carries out a hate crime against Muslims; all they have really accomplished is to help ISIS.


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After people protested, Trump made some changes to his Stop and Frisk policy. Unfortunately it now involves being stabbed to death by a child with a plastic knife.


#4
Joe Bloe

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Frozenwolf150 - That was a really interesting post. I'm glad you wrote it.


Believe nothing you hear and only half what you see.

#5
Frozenwolf150

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A lot of people forget that the "War on Terror" isn't just a shooting war, but also a propaganda war and a war of recruitment.  This is not the kind of war you can win with the strategy of, "Shoot the bad guys!"  As I said above, it will be impossible to win without doing something to help the victims of the war.  Even more to that point, every Muslim that the US convinces to join our side is one less that ISIS and AQ will get.  Again, the Muslims the US can recruit to its side are the most effective weapon against Islamic extremists.  Remember how the talking point coming from the Right has been that peaceful Muslims should do more to denounce and fight terrorism?  Well, since no one wants to see ISIS defeated more than the Muslims they prey on, it does the US and its allies a great disservice not to allow them the opportunity to do more.


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After people protested, Trump made some changes to his Stop and Frisk policy. Unfortunately it now involves being stabbed to death by a child with a plastic knife.


#6
Cousin Ricky

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Peaceful Muslims don't denounce terrorism in the same way that President Obama didn't bomb ISIS. If you very carefully curate your news sources, you may somehow avoid the barrage of denunciations from peaceful Muslims.


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“Facts seem to roll off a Christian like water off a duck.” —Great Ape

“How much can you actually doubt something and still maintain that you believe it?” —Josh K, “Alpha and Omega”

“You don’t understand. My crisis of faith is over.

#7
jonathanlobl

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While we are pushing for equality:

 

It's a common theme that all Muslims need to denounce all Islamist terrorism.

 

Do all Jews need to denounce every bad thing that the government of Israel does?

 

Do all Italian Americans still need to denounce the Mafia?

 

Do all reasonable Americans need to denounce Trump?  -- Well, yes.


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Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
"We don't know and we don't care."

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"Never trust the clergy!" Jonathan Lobl

#8
Frozenwolf150

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While we are pushing for equality:

 

It's a common theme that all Muslims need to denounce all Islamist terrorism.

 

Do all Jews need to denounce every bad thing that the government of Israel does?

 

Do all Italian Americans still need to denounce the Mafia?

 

Do all reasonable Americans need to denounce Trump?  -- Well, yes.

Do all Christians have to denounce the KKK?

 

Do all conservatives have to denounce right wing militia and Neo-Nazi groups?

 

Do all Trump supporters have to denounce the violence and hate of the deplorables?

 

Well if they want American Muslims to denounce Islamic terrorism, then they'd damn well better get to it.


After people protested, Trump made some changes to his Stop and Frisk policy. Unfortunately it now involves being stabbed to death by a child with a plastic knife.


#9
jonathanlobl

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Do all Christians have to denounce the KKK?

 

Do all conservatives have to denounce right wing militia and Neo-Nazi groups?

 

Do all Trump supporters have to denounce the violence and hate of the deplorables?

 

Well if they want American Muslims to denounce Islamic terrorism, then they'd damn well better get to it.

 

That would be difficult.  They would have to start with Steve Banon and Breitbart.  And of course, Trump.


Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
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#10
Frozenwolf150

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As I mentioned before, one of the claims from Islamophobes that pisses me off the most is that, "The majority of Muslims believe the Quran should be taken literally, that women should be treated like dirt, and that Islam should dominate the world."  This is just a variation on the stupid belief that all Muslims are terrorists or potential terrorists.

 

I could point out that 90% of Muslims identify as moderate.  I could point out that 90% of the victims of ISIS are Muslims.  I could point out that American Muslims are virtually indistinct from American Jews in terms of culture, community, and attitudes towards the country.  But I had a better idea.

 

If it were true that all Muslims are terrorists, then we'd all be dead now.  This isn't hyperbole, this is based on statistics.  There are an estimated 1.6 billion Muslims living in the world today.  Membership in ISIS, at its peak, was estimated to be 31,000.  This means ISIS makes up approximately 0.0019% of the Muslim population, or about 1 in every 52,000 Muslims.  Since its inception, 33,000 people have been killed by ISIS from 2002-2016.

 

This means that if all Muslims were indeed terrorists, they would have enough manpower to have killed 1.7 billion people.  That's almost 1/4 of the world's current population, and more than 5 times the population of the United States.

 

However, that's far more thought than I give any deplorable credit for putting into the bullshit they say.


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After people protested, Trump made some changes to his Stop and Frisk policy. Unfortunately it now involves being stabbed to death by a child with a plastic knife.


#11
jonathanlobl

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The problem is that there is more than one Islam.

 

There is the Islam of good people.  We have all met good Muslims.  I don't want to play with numbers.

 

There is also the Islam of monsters.  Again.  I don't want to play with numbers.  If we pretend they don't exist, we are living in denial and fantasy.

 

I remember a time when Italian Americans were in denial about the Mafia.  It was only when they were able to confront the reality of the Mafia, that the power of the mob was broken.  It was good Italians who brought down the mob, after they were through pretending it didn't exist.


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Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
"We don't know and we don't care."

Minister, First Church of Atheism (05/10/2008)


"Never trust the clergy!" Jonathan Lobl

#12
Zeff

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Certainly it is important to be careful about using the terms 'Islamophobia' and 'Islamist'.

Using Islamophobia runs the risk of seeming to condemn all critics of Islam as motivated by prejudice or even a sort of "racism based on religion".

In the same way, calling people Islamists (meaning Muslims who go beyond criticizing the West or Western foreign policy, or beyond defending Islam and the Koran, or being actively against secularism) can be seen by Muslims to be an attack on many moderate Muslims, or even on all Muslims.
 

This is because where the line is between being a reasonable critic (of Islam/Muslims) and being "Islamophobic" is a highly subjective opinion. Similarly: the line between being a "good or innocent Muslim" and failing to oppose religiously motivated violence is equally subjective opinion.

I suggest both terms aren't helpful as they are so vague as to mean quite different things to different audiences. Their meaning may be said to change according to the constituency being addressed. 

The problem of defining Islamophobia and Islamism may be compared to international efforts to achieve a definition of terrorism. One person's Islamophobe, Islamist or terrorist is another person's reasonable person. 


Edited by Zeff, 05 March 2017 - 09:15 AM.


#13
jonathanlobl

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Certainly it is important to be careful about using the terms 'Islamophobia' and 'Islamist'.

Using Islamophobia runs the risk of seeming to condemn all critics of Islam as motivated by prejudice or even a sort of "racism based on religion".

In the same way, calling people Islamists (meaning Muslims who go beyond criticizing the West or Western foreign policy, or beyond defending Islam and the Koran, or being actively against secularism) can be seen by Muslims to be an attack on many moderate Muslims, or even on all Muslims.
 

This is because where the line is between being a reasonable critic (of Islam/Muslims) and being "Islamophobic" is a highly subjective opinion. Similarly: the line between being a "good or innocent Muslim" and failing to oppose religiously motivated violence is equally subjective opinion.

I suggest both terms aren't helpful as they are so vague as to mean quite different things to different audiences. Their meaning may be said to change according to the constituency being addressed. 

The problem of defining Islamophobia and Islamism may be compared to international efforts to achieve a definition of terrorism. One person's Islamophobe, Islamist or terrorist is another person's reasonable person. 

 

 

The problem is that there are at least two Islams.  There is the Islam of good people and there is the Islam of monsters.  The good Muslims are sensitive to being defamed.  The monsters are monsters.


Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
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Minister, First Church of Atheism (05/10/2008)


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#14
Frozenwolf150

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The problem is that there are at least two Islams.  There is the Islam of good people and there is the Islam of monsters.  The good Muslims are sensitive to being defamed.  The monsters are monsters.

I see it as more of a difference between good people who turn to Islam to justify their morals, and evil people who turn to Islam to justify their morals.  You can substitute any major organized religion for Islam and it makes no difference.  They're approaching what is nominally the same philosophy from completely different ends.  If you consider the fact that ISIS has gleefully killed tens of thousands of fellow Muslims, and then remove the religion from the equation, they would still have killed those people all the same.  ISIS wants political power and territory, same as the thousands of other human tribes or civilizations that have waged war throughout our history, and they'll kill anyone who stands in their way.

 

 

I should clarify, a phobia is an irrational fear.  Whenever I hear someone who hates Muslims based on the fallacies of Guilt By Association or Generalization, and on claims with no evidence to support them, that tells me there is no rational thought behind their stance.


After people protested, Trump made some changes to his Stop and Frisk policy. Unfortunately it now involves being stabbed to death by a child with a plastic knife.


#15
jonathanlobl

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I see it as more of a difference between good people who turn to Islam to justify their morals, and evil people who turn to Islam to justify their morals.  You can substitute any major organized religion for Islam and it makes no difference.  They're approaching what is nominally the same philosophy from completely different ends.  If you consider the fact that ISIS has gleefully killed tens of thousands of fellow Muslims, and then remove the religion from the equation, they would still have killed those people all the same.  ISIS wants political power and territory, same as the thousands of other human tribes or civilizations that have waged war throughout our history, and they'll kill anyone who stands in their way.

 

 

I should clarify, a phobia is an irrational fear.  Whenever I hear someone who hates Muslims based on the fallacies of Guilt By Association or Generalization, and on claims with no evidence to support them, that tells me there is no rational thought behind their stance.

 

 

I understand.  My family religion, that I was raised in, is Judaism.  I'm going to state the obvious.  It's the same evil Sky Daddy that the Muslims follow.  The details differ, but he's the same old rotten, mean, genocidal, monster.  I have no difficulty recognizing him.

 

You're right of course.  People are good or bad despite their religion.  Not because of it.  Religion does make a wonderful excuse for evil, vicious actions.  Of course.  Any excuse is a good one.  I think it's a matter of resonance.  Some people vibrate to a good message.  Others vibrate to the bad message.  In the end, it is what we have within us.


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#16
Zeff

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The problem is that there are at least two Islams.  There is the Islam of good people and there is the Islam of monsters.  The good Muslims are sensitive to being defamed.  The monsters are monsters.

There are many Islams and people are "Islamic" to different degrees and in varying ways. People who commit atrocities are still human.

 

I see it as more of a difference between good people who turn to Islam to justify their morals, and evil people who turn to Islam to justify their morals.  You can substitute any major organized religion for Islam and it makes no difference.  They're approaching what is nominally the same philosophy from completely different ends.  If you consider the fact that ISIS has gleefully killed tens of thousands of fellow Muslims, and then remove the religion from the equation, they would still have killed those people all the same.  ISIS wants political power and territory, same as the thousands of other human tribes or civilizations that have waged war throughout our history, and they'll kill anyone who stands in their way.

 

 

I should clarify, a phobia is an irrational fear.  Whenever I hear someone who hates Muslims based on the fallacies of Guilt By Association or Generalization, and on claims with no evidence to support them, that tells me there is no rational thought behind their stance.

Although to all constituencies 'phobia' means 'irrational fear', the meaning of "Islamophobia" still varies according to constituency addressed. Morality doesn't come from religion it comes from nature and nurture. Many religionists don't accept that. I note many more approaches to philosophy than two ends but it isn't philosophy that motivates behavior though we may use philosophy to try to explain it. Narcissistic and murderous do not murder because of religion, but religion provides a very good justification in their minds. It is vital to the tribalism of all sects from the Ahmadiyya to Al-Q and Daesh.

 

..You're right of course.  People are good or bad despite their religion.  Not because of it.  Religion does make a wonderful excuse for evil, vicious actions.  Of course.  Any excuse is a good one.  I think it's a matter of resonance.  Some people vibrate to a good message.  Others vibrate to the bad message.  In the end, it is what we have within us.

They are bad due to nature and nurture, but religion facilitates bad behavior. That is why I am anti-Muslim and oppose all religion and all superstition. 

There may or may not be something about Islam that better facilitates extremism but the main cause is the overall nature of the society, not just the religion. Look at where extremists come from. They come from the fringes of Western society who have rejected Western style democracy (UK "Islamists") and even Western education (Boko Haram). They come particularly from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt and the Middle East. They come from where religion is strong and blasphemy is a crime; where atheism is equated with terrorism; literacy rates are often low and the Madrassa (religious schools) are the norm; and in some of their languages there is no perfectly exact word for compromise because it doesn't quite exist in their culture (where they're nurtured). 

Here's a fact that makes some people uncomfortable: the number of Islamic terrorist attacks is somewhat proportional to the number of Muslims in a country. Japan has suffered no Islamic terrorism. Of course, the same people find a different cult to follow. Remember Aum Shinrikyo?...
https://en.wikipedia...ay_sarin_attack

Remember the 80:20 rule: 20% cause 80% of the trouble. The violent are a small section of the 20%. This seems to increase in war zones or violent areas, where education is poor and where freedom of speech and expression aren't so highly valued as in "the West" (e.g. in Australia). Remember too that it only took 50,000 armed men to lay waste to Afghanistan, a country of 20-odd millions. 


Edited by Zeff, 06 March 2017 - 12:34 AM.


#17
jonathanlobl

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I have been exploring the Atheist and Agnostic sites on Facebook.  The Christian trolls are amazingly stupid and crazy.  To my astonishment, the Muslim trolls are even more stupid and crazy.  It's hard to say what the difference is.  The crazy Muslims seem to burn more brightly than the crazy Christians.

 

In fairness, there are good Muslims.  I don't want to paint with too broad a brush.  I know the good ones are there.  I have met some of them.

 

The crazies do make the flesh crawl with revulsion.


Minister, Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic (02/20/2002)
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Minister, First Church of Atheism (05/10/2008)


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#18
Frozenwolf150

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Here's a fact that makes some people uncomfortable: the number of Islamic terrorist attacks is somewhat proportional to the number of Muslims in a country. Japan has suffered no Islamic terrorism. Of course, the same people find a different cult to follow. Remember Aum Shinrikyo?...

https://en.wikipedia...ay_sarin_attack

Violent extremists in a given country tend to belong to whatever the predominant religion or ideology is.  In the United States, since 9/11 the overwhelming majority of terrorism related deaths were perpetrated by right wing extremists, white nationals, and Christian bigots.  Though I don't have to tell anyone here about American's homegrown white supremacist Christian terrorist organization, or who they had endorsed for president.


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After people protested, Trump made some changes to his Stop and Frisk policy. Unfortunately it now involves being stabbed to death by a child with a plastic knife.


#19
Ungodly

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Each person I meet is either a Muslim or they are not a Muslim.  

 

If they are a Muslim I try to regard them as an individual person not necessarily like or unlike other Muslims.  

 

If they are not a Muslim I try to regard them as an individual person not necessarily like or unlike other non-Muslims.

 

Generally I think it is best to focus on the unique aspects of each individual rather than the purported characteristics of any demographic groups that may or may not include them.

 

When we judge people before we meet them that is pre-judging, a/k/a prejudice.  Ideally we might achieve not judging people at all, just getting along with them.   Occasionally we meet someone who might make achieving such harmony more difficult.

 


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"Weapons are the tools of violence; all decent men detest them."

--Lao Tzu

 




Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Islamic, Islamism, Islamist, Islamist terrorism, terrorism

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